Interview with Jim Wendler Part 1

How to Build Muscle, Strength & Conditioning

A few weeks ago I had the pleasure of welcoming my good friends Dave Tate, Alwyn Cosgrove and Jim Wendler to my summer house at the Jersey shore for the weekend. On Friday afternoon, while we waited for Alwyn to arrive from LA, Jim and I sat down over a few (pitchers, not glasses) vodka lemonades and discussed training, music, tattoos, girls, family and everything in between. During this time Dave was in the ocean trying to master the art of going under the waves and not over them. Unfortunately he never quite caught on and ended up on his back covered in sand in seashells much to my amusement. By the time Cosgrove arrived we were pretty well intoxicated and decided to end our conversation and head down the street to the bar. After Alwyn fed us vodka all night we headed home and passed out (supposedly I did a lot more than that but I am denying all such accusations). The next day Joe DeFranco stopped by and we all talked training and business for several hours. After the sixth or seventh hour of nonstop business talk, Jim and I decided that our brains were starting to melt and we needed to go to the beach and take a dip and throw the football around. Jim was also probably a bit burnt out with listening to the hours of hip hop that was playing in the background on my iPod. To his credit though, he never complained. It was during this time on the beach that we finished our talk from the night before. I always knew that I had the utmost respect for Jim Wendler and thought he was genuinely one of the coolest people I had ever met and was proud to call him my friend. That impression was strongly reinforced during that weekend. With no disrespect intended to any of my esteemed colleagues such as Dave, Alwyn, Joe, or any of our other staff members here at EliteFTS.com, I have to say that I also consider Jim Wendler to be the first person I would go to for training advice. From day one, Jim and I have always been on the same page as far as our thoughts on training go and I would take and use any recommendations Jim makes any day of the week. While he admits that he can not drop science like some of the so called gurus out there, he knows how to get strong. That’s all that matters to me. The following is a recap (edited, of course) of many conversations that I had with Jim Wendler during that weekend at the beach.

Jason: Damn dude, you’re looking sexy. Dropping thirty pounds did wonders for you. I can actually see your eyes now. The bald head’s a nice look too. How are you feeling?

Jim: I feel about a million times better physically. I can actually walk now and can sleep through the night. There was a time when walking more than 30-40 yards would kill me. I remember one time I was walking my dog and I had to stop at every light post on the street. They were about 40 yards apart. I would have to lean up against it and catch my breath. This is when my wife made me take my cell phone on the walks just in case I had a heart attack. This is not a lie. It is kind of amusing, though. I rarely have heartburn and I can think a little bit clearer. I have to admit that mentally this has made things more difficult. I have spent the majority of my life trying to get bigger and now I am trying to lose weight. This has been very difficult for me. But people are dying in Iraq so when I put it in perspective, it’s not that hard.

As far as my hair cut, this was inevitable. I was trying to hold on for as long as possible. Your intervention definitely helped. Tough love is a great thing but only in hindsight.

As far as being sexy, it’s funny that you bring that up. Some girl came up to me the other day and told me how cute I was. I think she was on X and had a glass eye with an eye patch covering her good eye, but it came out of her mouth, so I’m happy.

Jason: How much do you weigh now and do you plan on losing any more weight?

Jim: I am always around 255 and have no plans to drop much more. If it happens, it happens. As long as I feel healthy, I really don’t care what I weigh.

Jason: What have you been doing lately for conditioning? How often and for how long?

Jim: Conditioning sucks. I hated it during my sporting days, and I still hate it. But since I feel that I need to do this to remain healthy I’ve started thinking of things other than the typical treadmill/Stairmaster stuff. I try to get three days of conditioning in. Every Monday, Wednesday and Friday, I lift weights and meet my wife and son at the local high school. My wife and I do various things such as the Parisi Warm-up, sled dragging, stairs, bodyweight exercises, and The Prowler. We use the highly evolved system of showing up and picking one.

This is very important to me as it allows my son to see both my wife and I training and this will hopefully become part of his lifestyle. Plus, it gets us out of the house and outside. I’ve never seen a depressed person kill themselves outside. The sun is a good thing. I am probably going to buy a new bike and bike to work everyday. But we will see how that pans out.

Jason: I’d love to see that happen. You keep telling me about this strict diet you’re on. What’s that consist of and how’s it going?

Jim: First, let me explain my version of strict. Strict means about 75% of the time. What I’ve found out with diet, as with any kind of lifestyle change, is that you need to ease into it. The first thing that I did was eliminate sugars (including sodas) and white bread. Once I did this, I tried to increase my intake of fruits and vegetables. Now I’m trying to limit my consumption of red meat. I have always been a huge meat eater; I would eat about 7 or 8 steaks a week. I don’t think this is too healthy. Basically, I’m just trying to eat better. I’m a huge fan of Chicago Style Pizza and I’m still going to enjoy that. The point is to eat right most of the time. When you start getting too rigid is when you have to let the sphincter relax.

Jason: So how does it feel to be officially retired now?

Jim: I feel really good actually. I met or eclipsed all of my goals. In 00, I wrote down that I wanted to bench 600 and squat 1000. In 03, I set a 2300 total as a goal. In 05, I reached all of these goals. I have no regrets and have no misgivings about retiring from the sport. Here’s something to think about. My last year of football was definitely my last. I was tired of the sport. I left the last game knowing that I achieved every one of my goals. I walked out of Sun Devil Stadium (the site of my last collegiate game) pleased and content. But, I was also very depressed. When your whole life has revolved around one game and all of a sudden it stops, it’s somewhat hard to deal with. I’m sure it’s even tougher for pro football players. Anyway, the difference with football and powerlifting is that someone basically told me that I was done playing football. I had no choice. With powerlifting, there is no one telling you that you are done. So I didn’t want to be the fat Elvis or the Wizard’s Jordan. I wanted to go out on my own terms and do it the way that I wanted it. I think some people have a hard time with this concept.

Jason: I think that’s very admirable and have the utmost respect for your ability to do that. Was there anything else that forced or helped make that decision?

Jim: There were four things that helped my decision. The number one thing is that it just wasn’t fun anymore. I didn’t want to do it. The second thing is that I had a great last meet and reached all of my goals. The third thing is that my health was rapidly deteriorating and I needed to lose some weight. I had two very scary episodes before my last meet and knew that something had to change. The last reason is personal and will not be discussed.

Jason: So what are your goals for your training now?

Jim: Get a huge f#cking neck and traps and be able to move with little pain. Years of football and lifting eventually takes its toll. Anyone who has tried to compete at the highest level knows that athletics are not that healthy. I was never a high level athlete, but I tried like hell. I never competed in the WPO or the NFL but I was one step away from both. And I did everything I could to get there. That is the nature of the competitive athlete and persona. That’s what the general public will never understand about athletics and particularly the use of anabolics. A very competitive athlete will understand, but not necessarily agree with, the use of drugs in sports. I should point out that I have absolutely no regrets. How many people can say that they squatted 1000lbs and got to play on ESPN?

Jason: Not many. Where are you training now?

Jim: I’ve been training at the Compound. It’s about 10 feet from my desk and it’s been a great time. I train with Matt (Bash) but we really don’t train together. We put on some music and do our own thing. This is the most fun I’ve had training since Kevin and I started training in 01. Kevin (Deweese) has always been my best training partner because like me, he doesn’t give two shits about what people think of us or our training. We are both non-cheerleaders and get about as intense as a coma victim before training lifts. There was never backstabbing or hidden agenda’s. I credit a large part of my success in powerlifting to Kevin; not so much for his help (which was a huge part) but because he wasn’t annoying. This sounds retarded, but why the hell would I want to train with people I don’t like? He made it fun to go to the gym. Being a RA-RA kind of person is not my style nor do I want to lift with one. All of the guys that I trained with in Kentucky were great: Jason Adams, Grant Lanning and Kevin. I got to train with Evan Simon for awhile and never trained with J.L. Holdsworth, but that’s a whole other story that’s funnier than hell.

I am very lucky to have spent time at Westside Barbell and it was a dream of mine to lift there. But since I am no longer competing I would be a hindrance to the other members.

Jason: Dave was just talking to us earlier about his days in bodybuilding and talking about setting up bodybuilding style workouts which both of us were completely unfamiliar with. Now that you’re not competing in powerlifting anymore, could you ever see yourself going down that route and going to the gym and just doing a day of bi’s and tri’s?

Jim: Dave had an intervention with me the other day. He sat me down and told me the secrets to getting huge. And who better to tell me? Dave can be 290lbs with a slight hint of abs. The problem is that his advice is something that I can’t do. I have always trained like an athlete and don’t see myself changing. Of course, I can’t do what I used to do but I still love training like this.

Jason: I know neither of us feel like talking about training that much right now at eight o’clock on a Friday night, but lots of people will be interested in what you have to say so before we shift gears lets discuss a few more training related issues. First of all when I was in the bathroom before I overheard you saying that you think people should do six to ten lifts over 90% on max effort days. Most people are usually conscious to get three lifts above 90% but not six to ten. Can you give your reasoning for this?

Jim: Let me clarify this before people start going ape shit and e-mailing their congressman. I like simplicity. So let’s break down how to get strong to its simplest form. To get strong you have to lift heavy weights. No one is going to dispute that. If they do, they are selling a gimmick. And you need to lift heavy weights frequently. You do not get stronger by lifting heavy weights every 6 months. And you need to lift heavy weights without overtraining. So, with this in mind, you need to lift heavy weights frequently enough to get stronger but not enough so you overtrain and get hurt. I hope this makes sense.

Now since everyone is different in regards to how they respond to volume, start with the low end of Prilipin’s chart regarding 90%. This would include 3 lifts at or above 90%. The maximum, according to Prilipin, is 10 reps. The problem with Prilipin’s chart is that it was developed using Olympic lifts and with junior weightlifters. This is something that seems to escape some people. So it’s not something that is gospel, but it’s a tremendous guide to start with. You have to know where your drop off point is and how much you can handle. This is something that you can use guidelines for but will have to find out for yourself.

This kind of training was used quite extensively by the Bulgarians and was shown in the book; Pocket Hercules. This book, more than any other, has shaped my way of training (at least for strength sports) more than any other.

I should mention that this kind of training was used only AFTER a large amount of time was spent on preparedness. So this is NOT for beginners. The book touches on what Naim did prior to his intense training regimen.

I should also point out that this is just ONE way to train. Not everyone can do this, obviously. But it is something that some people have gotten results with. It’s definitely not something I would do with athletes, but great for a powerlifter.

Jason: If you could only pick one, what would you say is the single biggest mistake most people make when trying to get stronger?

Jim: The biggest mistake is not using cybernetic periodization and not listening to your body. You can somewhat plan your workouts, but if you feel like crap, what are you going to do? If you are feeling great, do you not push yourself? This is not very applicable for strength coaches at the high school, collegiate or professional levels. But if you are being trained by yourself, this is the best way to train. Obviously, a beginner needs a plan and needs to stick to it. He needs to learn what works and what doesn’t. As one gets more experienced, he will know that if he feels like crap or his knee is swelled up or he didn’t get much sleep in the last week, he needs to tailor his training accordingly.

I learned long ago that if I did a program with a lot of volume, that I would be fried, mentally and physically, for about a week. So even if I had a ton of energy after my main lift, I would be careful of what I did. This ensured that I could train more often. Again, this is a personal thing. Take a look at what Brian Siders is doing. His volume is insane, but that is what works for him. Everything you’ve ever read will tell you that Brian Siders’ training is wrong. Fortunately, Brian never read these books or cared enough about them. I should point out that I am not in the same league as Brian Siders; not even close. I’m just giving two different perspectives on training.

I know people want a program laid out for them and have everything monitored. That’s great to write about and great for a beginner. In the real strength world, that doesn’t apply.

Jason: How much negative impact does training to failure and getting too fired up all the time have on your training and your ability to get stronger?

Jim: This usually kills me. Dave is known for getting fired up and he will admit that it really doesn’t do him much good.

I gave up the whole psych routine. The best way to cure yourself of this misguided energy is go into a weight room with no intention of lifting and watch someone that loves to get frothy. There is no doubt that you will say to yourself, 93What a moron.94 A good example is getting drunk. Next time you find yourself remotely amusing when drinking, go to a bar, about one hour before closing, and watch the people that are stumbling around. You will quickly realize that you were/are one of those idiots.

Jason: Guilty as charged.

Jim: But it still makes for a great time.

Jason: That it does.

Jim: As far as training to failure, I don’t think that this always the most optimal way to train. I won’t say that you should NEVER do it, but it shouldn’t be a staple in your program. Maybe that’s why true HIT’ers can’t train more than once every 15 days or whatever.

Jason: I finally learned to give up the whole psych routine myself, due in large part to your influence, and my training has been much better since. Moving on, what do you think are some of the best training books out there?

Jim: All of the Russian manuals are great as is the aforementioned Naim Suleymanolgu book. I think that Starting Strength is one of the better books out there.

Jason: Are there any other resources you recommend for people looking to learn more about training?

Jim: There is a lot of great information out there and I think that most of the books that are prescribed are good. But I will always say that I have learned thousands times more by training myself, listening to other lifters and coaches and asking questions. I’ve also learned a ton by coaching.

I don’t know if it’s cool for me to say that, but it’s true. I have the opportunity to talk to coaches everyday and have been exposed to training for over half of my life. The only bad thing about the mass exchange of information is that no one is giving anything a real shot. They will read about some sort of training, do it for a month, and then switch when they read something else. So they have never given anything the proper time to take effect. When I first began training, there was very little that I had to go off of, as far as books. I had to learn from others and from myself. I made a lot of mistakes but I learned from each of these.

The best thing that books, DVD’s and other resources did was patch holes in my training.

The strange thing is that I’ve always made great gains by training with strong people. But, I’ve also had a lot of fun training by myself. What I’ve found out that with a family and a great job, I’ve had little time to myself. Training alone has given me the opportunity to have that alone time where it’s just me and the weights. I know this sounds kind of strange, but there is nothing like training to trance inducing doom and getting stupid. I know I’m rambling right now, so I’ll stop.

Next week Jim and Jason talk about such topics as drug use, the meaning of life, education and some more training.